Saturday, October 17, 2015

You immigrant

This week there was an interview with a Muslim lady in Wroclaw and her recent experiences. She said in the interview that in recent weeks as anti-immigrant sentiments have grown, the environment around her has become more hostile. They have been verbally abused. Her husband has been attacked, and she has been spit on.

An article today tells the story of a boy beaten at school. They chanted, "you immigrant".

People accuse me of refusing to acknowlege the bigger picture of the "immigrant problem". My acquaintainces say that is life, I am naive, she should get over it, what did she expect parading around in her head scarf, they do worse things in Muslim countries than spit on you, she is a representative of the barbaric acts carried out in the name of her god around the world and as such shares responsibility. 

So it's okay to spit on her? 

I am not willfully ignorant of the world around me. I am not ignoring the bigger picture, but I am asking people to see the smaller picture. The smaller picture of a lady walking home from the store who was spit on. The smaller picture of her fear, her fury, her shame and humiliation, her paralysis as she wavered between wiping the spit from her face and picking up her shopping from the sidewalk. If we lose the ability to see the individual in the group and the human in the individual, I fear for us. Nobody's god will help us then.

Poland is not for everybody as one acquaintaince pointed out to me yesterday. It is true. Poland is not for everybody, but it should be for banal reasons like the weather or taxes. It should not be because we threaten people on the street.

I have been spit on. It was by accident. The spitter didn't hear me walk up beside him. He apologized profusely, tried to clean me up, and offered me 50 złoty compensation which I didn't accept and somehow made me feel worse. It feels terrible being spit on.

26 comments:

Stardust said...

I simply don't understand and I hope I never will understand what's going on in Poland.
As you know I am an immigrant.
My son was 8 years old when he went to American school and he didn't speak any English.
Nobody called him names, nobody spit at us, nobody attacked us... Maybe we didn't look different then most Americans, but we didn't speak their language and everywhere we went people were patient and very helpful.
Every store and office where I had to take care of our papers, do shopping or doctor office where we had to complete checkups always found someone who spoke Polish or had enough patience to wait till I found the right word in my dictionary.
My son was a center of attention in positive way, all the kids in school and in neighborhood wanted to play with him and help.
I have the best memories only from the first few years of living in America.
Some say that people in New York are rude....... I disagree, they are very friendly.

Iwona A. said...

People are people, Chris. There are good people and there are bad people, everywhere. My children WERE bullied in Scotland for being Polish, and amazingly the worst bullies were children of Asian immigrants. My Chinese friend was spat at by Scottish neds (Non-Educated Delinquents or simply hooligans) and she was traumatised. I personally never experienced any act of abuse against me but I try to be kind to everyone so I just don't give "them" opportunity. People are just people, the lower level of education, the biggest deprivation, the worse their behaviour is. Unfortunately, sometimes the whole community suffers because of one idiot.

Me said...

Ludzie po prostu nie myślą, bo to wysiłek, bo zostali odzwyczajeni (na inną dyskusję są mechanizmy ogłupiające ludzi/społeczeństwo), ktoś im daje wykładnię, według której postępują. To łatwe, daje poczucie wspólnoty, anonimowość i poczucie bezpieczeństwa. Daje się im wroga i uzasadnia się nim ich niedolę, niepowodzenia itd. Stare mechanizmy. Bo komu by się chciało pomyśleć, jaki jest związek między obecną falą imigrantów, terroryzmem i fundamentalizmem islamskim a kobietą wracającą z zakupów do domu, kobietą - jednostką w niemal całkowicie homogenicznym otoczeniu? Żaden lub prawie żaden. Komu się chce uprzykrzać życie innym, trawić czas na to, kogo to cieszy?
Nie wykluczone, że się mylę, ale uważam, że mają miejsce działania zmierzające do wywoływania takich postaw, zachowań, takiego wychowania, bezmyślności. Ups, przepraszam, witam w 90-kilku procentowo katolickim społeczeństwie. I wybory za niedługo.
Są rzeczy, które się w głowie nie chcą zmieścić...

Chris said...

Star - I am so happy that your first weeks, months in the US were so filled with friendly, helpful people. There are quite a few immigrants at our girls' school. We've got kids from mixed marriages from the US, UK, France, Africa, South America. We have a Muslim family- mom and older girls wear head scarves. We've got a family from Spain who decided not to send their kids to the international school, but to our humble public school. We've got an Asian family, but the daughter is older so we've never spoken with them. Our younger daughter has two new classmates from Ukraine this year. And the children and the teachers are all very friendly, helpful, and accepting. It's hard to put that together with the terrible things my acquaintances have been saying about refugees.

Chris said...

Iwona- For the longest time, I tried to follow your way...It's just one or a couple of idiots. But now, so many people from all walks of life repeat anti-refugee anthems, that I have had to abandon that idea. One of my friends, prominent in his career, well-dressed, says the same things the hooligans say. He also says that he doesn't have to actually do anything against the refugees because the skinheads will do the job for him.

I'm sorry that your children were bullied like that. It's just plain wrong. I have also found that some of the fiercest opponents are other foreigners. Go figure.

Chris said...

Me - Zgadzam się z tobą jak zwykle. I co można robić jedna mała Chris-ka z Ameryki? I na dodatek sama imigrantka.

Anonymous said...

The great irony is that millions of Poles themselves emigrated and now live all over the world. They're very sensitive to how they're perceived, quick to condemn anty-polskosc, and feel very sorry for themselves if/when they feel discriminated against.

Yet when confronted with immigrants in their own backyard they turn into enthusiastic neo-Nazis.

For those of us, Poles who live overseas, this is deeply troubling and shameful. I've stopped defending Poles from accusations of antisemitism and xenophobia. It's impossible, given the outrageous things Poles write online for all the world to see and read.

Dorota in Colorado

Stardust said...

Dorota in Colorado you're so right!!!
When I hear Poles talking about the difference between uchodzcami and those who simply want better life I can't help but think that 98% Poles who left Poland in last 25years belong to the second group. Why is Britain so popular? because has great benefits and that's main reason Poles go to Britain not let's say Spain or Portugal.
Hypocrisy, hypocrisy and one more time H Y P O C R I S Y.

Chris said...

Hypocrisy and irony. You both hit the nail on the head, Star and Dorota.

Friend:
We don't want those refugees here or immigrants or foreigners or whatever you call them. They just want to come here for a better life. They're not escaping anything. And they'll never assimilate, they'll never learn Polish. They'll just try to change things.

Chris:
Like me. Like your sister in Ireland.

Friend:
No, Chris you're different. You already knew Polish, and you're Catholic anyhow.

Me: I didn't know any Polish, and I'm not Catholic.

Friend: But you learned so fast and you assimilated. You don't try to change things.

Me: I've been here for 15 years. I'm still not fluent in Polish. I try to change things all the time, for example religion at school.

Friend: But you're different. You came here because you wanted to come here.

Chris: I came here to find a better job.

Friend: But, you know, you're different.

And now I am wondering what it is that is so different about me that I am the good kind of immigrant and they are the bad kind.

czarownica said...

My children have never experienced any bullying in England, even when the younger one was the first non-English speaking pupils at her primary school. They requested a adaptation programme form another school, found a buddy knowing some Polish for her, and allocated a TA who was helping her to learn English.
I heard one racist comment form a man on the street who heard me talking in Polish to my cousin. Not bad for 10 years, huh?
I am the most overbooked GP in our surgery, between 5 of us (one Indian female and 3 English white males). Patients are waiting about 4 weeks to see me if they want to book in advance and not gamble with same day appointments at 8 a.m.

Well, we've been assimilating since the first day, whilst keeping our identity though. I keep the poster with Polish RAF pilots and famous Churchill quote and I co-lead the Polish Saturday School, teaching children Polish and their parent English. Hope this organic work will give a good start for the next generations, as our is already lost.

Anonymous said...

You come from the New World, Chris. Countries built on immigration and assimilation of people from various regions of the world. Everyone there has a background in Germany, Italy, Ireland, Poland, Mexico, Africa. That's normal in the States and differences in faith or ethnicity are expected. Europe on the other hand has ethnic countries. The influx of people not just from neighboring states but outside of the continent is something new for us that suddenly turns the old order upside down. No wonder people are afraid.
Another issue is ghettos - immigrants coming in huge waves tend to band together, settle in the same districts and through lack of sufficient exposure to the locals never assimilate, keeping their completely alien customs (much less of an issue) and beliefs and values(big issue). 10, 100, 1000 spread out immigrants can assimilate. A huge one million wave will find it much harder, if not impossible. It's a very obvious problem if one just takes a walk through any immigrant district in a major Western European city. It doesn't feel like you're between a bit "browner" Belgians or French - it's like you've just stepped into North Africa.
So what's that difference between you, Chris, and a muslim from Syria, which your friend noticed but couldn't put into words? Cultural proximity. Right off the bat, you're far more alike a Pole than an Arab is. And that's what everyone is afraid of. Europeans have one or at most two kids. Immigrants have five. With large scale immigration that's currently taking place, we risk being minorities in our own countries.

Beer Guzzler said...

@ Anonymous...

>The influx of people not just from neighboring states but outside of the continent is something new for us...

Keywords: "for us". Only the last couple of generations of the most thoroughly ethnically cleansed country in Europe. My grandparents - and probably yours - grew up surrounded with Jews, Ukrainians, Germans etc.

> ...that suddenly turns the old order upside down.

If by "the old order" you mean Soviet bureaucracy, religious brainwashing, dresiarze, alcoholism and unabashed xenophobia - I'm rooting for the old order to be turned upside down, dunked in a barrel of hot tar, sprinkled with feathers and kicked out of town.

> A huge one million wave

... which, even if it magically materialized (if *every last* Syrian citizen (18 mln) went to Europe (400 mln), they would account for 0.045% of the EU population) and the refugees spread uniformly across the EU, that would mean 17100 Syrians in Poland. That's roughly 200 families per województwo, or 1 family per gmina. The horror of mathematics!

>It's a very obvious problem if one just takes a walk through any immigrant district in a major Western European city. It doesn't feel like you're between a bit "browner" Belgians or French - it's like you've just stepped into North Africa.

I've lived in Brussels for the last 15 years. Tons of Africans and Muslims here. My pasty white ass never had any problem with any of them. I treat them like the normals humans they are and get the same in return. You should try it sometime. The "obvious problem" here is not anybody's "brownness".

> Right off the bat, you're far more alike a Pole than an Arab is.

Dunno why, I somehow feel you wouldn't say that if Chris was black. Plus, what you're saying is that Poles just can't deal with anyone who isn't a standard-issue white Christian. Brown skin, repulsive. Strange clothes? Terrifying. Not speaking Polish? Must be plotting against us.

> And that's what everyone is afraid of.

That's what every sheltered, ignorant dumbass is afraid of.

>With large scale immigration that's currently taking place, we risk being minorities in our own countries.

The only countries in Europe with a minority native population are Andorra and Monaco. Last I checked, they were doing just fine.

Mathematics time again... You do know how many people it would take to make Poles a minority in Poland, don't you? Aw fuck, I give up, what's the point in explaining.

Anonymous said...

First of all, it'd be lovely if you dropped the passive-aggressive tone. If you can even call that "passive" anyway. Mighty tolerant of you to call anyone who disagrees with your point of view an "ignorant dumbass". It really is amusing how people who preach tolerance are often the least tolerant of the opinions of others.

>Keywords: "for us". Only the last couple of generations of the most thoroughly ethnically cleansed country in Europe. My grandparents - and probably yours - grew up surrounded with Jews, Ukrainians, Germans etc.
Yes, "for us". People who were toddlers then are 70 years old by now. The vast majority of us does not remember those times. For them, Poland was always filled with nothing but Poles. You really shouldn't expect people who had nothing to do with those times to suddenly drop the homogenity they're used to with open arms.
>If by "the old order" you mean Soviet bureaucracy, religious brainwashing, dresiarze, alcoholism and unabashed xenophobia
No, I simply mean countries built of people sharing the same ethnicity, be it Polish, Danish or French. I somehow doubt Soviet bureaucracy will suddenly disappear if refugees come flocking (though that would be more than welcome). Certainly neither will religious brainwashing - only this time it'll be done not just in schools and churches, but also in mosques and madrasas.
>... which, even if it magically materialized (if *every last* Syrian citizen (18 mln) went to Europe (400 mln), they would account for 0.045% of the EU population) and the refugees spread uniformly across the EU, that would mean 17100 Syrians in Poland
First thing is that we're not talking just Syria. Current wave is also mixed of Eritreans, Iraqi, Afghans or Libyans. And oh boy, the way the Arab Spring went, expect to see Egyptians and others soon too. Suddenly your *every last* becomes 186 million. Secondly, they're not going to be spread evenly - you can't seriously expect Malta to take in as many as Germany. Proportionately to population, our share more than quadruples. And that's just this year's wave - don't kid yourself there won't be more.
>The "obvious problem" here is not anybody's "brownness" (...) Dunno why, I somehow feel you wouldn't say that if Chris was black.
Well, then you shouldn't rely on your feelings too much because they seem to lead you to wrong conclusions. I don't give a rat's ass about skin color - what matters to me is values one perceives as important. You know, simple things like view on the role of women in society. I explicitly mentioned beliefs and values as what is really important, yet you retreat into the safe "must be racist" mantra.
>Mathematics time again... You do know how many people it would take to make Poles a minority in Poland, don't you? Aw fuck, I give up, what's the point in explaining.
Quite a lot, yeah. Obviously it's a hyperbole to end the post on a strong note. But since we're back to mathematics anyway - population growth is exponential. Children have children. In two generations, a family with an average of 3 children will produce 27 brand new citizens, while a family with 2 will end up with a total of just 8. We're already looking at countries with 5-10% muslim populations in Europe. That's a significant number of people.

Beer Guzzler said...

>it'd be lovely if you dropped the passive-aggressive tone

Yeah, sorry about that, but I see and hear this kind of stuff from Poles over here all the time. The vast majority came here for profit and have overwhelmingly failed to learn the language(s) of Belgium. I can't stand the hypocrisy.

>You really shouldn't expect people who had nothing to do with those times to suddenly drop the homogenity they're used to with open arms.

I know it's not going to happen for most, but I reserve the right to criticize unwillingness to change. Age and upbringing are no excuse for abject conservatism. It's never too late to learn.

>Certainly neither will religious brainwashing - only this time it'll be done not just in schools and churches, but also in mosques and madrasas.

Catholicism and Islam are to me equally worthless. If Poland was serious about not allowing religious brainwashing, it would be doing something to curtail the homegrown variety. Poland is as in-your-face religious as any Muslim country I've been to.

> Suddenly your *every last* becomes 186 million.

Of which a fraction have the means to move, of which the vast majority will choose the next country over, of which only a minute percentage would ever contemplate going to Poland. Would you go live in Saudi Arabia just because the money's good?

>Secondly, they're not going to be spread evenly.

My calculation was based on population, not the number of countries. 18 mln is 0.045% of the 400 mln in the EU. 0.045% of 38 mln in Poland is 17100. Even if 3.8 million refugees came to Poland, they would still only represent 1% of the population. One person in a hundred can't be that hard to tolerate, can it?

>I explicitly mentioned beliefs and values as what is really important, yet you retreat into the safe "must be racist" mantra.

Because you're deciding what people's beliefs and values are based on nothing but ethnicity. Syrian = muslim = woman oppressor. Well I'm Polish and I subscribe to none of the sterotypical Polish beliefs. Belgium didn't assume I was a barely literate and alcoholic manual worker when I came. Nobody assumed I'd build a church or wear a tracksuit in public or fall asleep on the street in a drunken stupor. Because assuming anything about individuals based on where they come from is stupid.

> In two generations, a family with an average of 3 children will produce 27 brand new citizens, while a family with 2 will end up with a total of just 8.

True, but at least in Belgium birth rates in the second generation are by and large within the national norm. This in a country with an extremely generous social safety net. In a country like Poland, where no one will pay you to stay home and have a bunch of kids, I very, very much doubt there'd be any significant growth beyond the first generation.

>We're already looking at countries with 5-10% muslim populations in Europe.

10% in Belgium, 40% (no typo) in Brussels. I interact with Muslims every day. Not a single incident to report in 15 years. I cannot say the same of my years spent in white Catholic Poland.




Beer Guzzler said...

Sorry, effed up the math above. 3.8 mln refugees would be 10% of Poland, not 1%!

Anonymous said...

>The vast majority came here for profit and have overwhelmingly failed to learn the language(s) of Belgium. I can't stand the hypocrisy.
Well, I couldn't either. There's a lot of people who are staying right here in Poland though. Are they hypocrites too?
>Catholicism and Islam are to me equally worthless. If Poland was serious about not allowing religious brainwashing, it would be doing something to curtail the homegrown variety. Poland is as in-your-face religious as any Muslim country I've been to.
Believe me, being an atheist I'm tired of the ever-present church as well. Moherowe babcie though are yet to shoot up a Charlie Hebdo office, or a Jewish supermarket, or decapitate a soldier in the street and so on and so on. Not all muslims are radical like that? Of course not, it's just a fraction. There's more than plenty of really nice and decent people. But if you keep running into bad apples, you should probably be wary of the orchard.
>of which only a minute percentage would ever contemplate going to Poland.
>In a country like Poland, where no one will pay you to stay home and have a bunch of kids
I agree that we're not exactly at risk of getting overrun in Poland specifically. There's a good reason why everyone beelines for Germany and nobody wants to stay in Hungary or any of the other countries on the way. The whole debate in Poland is very preemptive and mostly caused by the proposition (or rather forcing) of quotas - and frankly even then many migrants would probably just take advantage of Schengen and disappear. I was thinking more of Europe in general - there's already a lot of anti-immigration tension building up and right wing parties are on the rise. Our turn to face a proper immigration crisis will come years later. Of course that's not to say that the situation in other countries doesn't affect us at all - EU citizenships matter.
>Because you're deciding what people's beliefs and values are based on nothing but ethnicity. Syrian = muslim = woman oppressor. Well I'm Polish and I subscribe to none of the sterotypical Polish beliefs. Belgium didn't assume I was a barely literate and alcoholic manual worker when I came. Nobody assumed I'd build a church or wear a tracksuit in public or fall asleep on the street in a drunken stupor. Because assuming anything about individuals based on where they come from is stupid.
Is there really no relation at all? Poland is in-your-face religious and it certainly shows in public opinion on various issues like homosexuality. A Pole is far more likely to be anti-gay than a Swede - you know this and every single poll knows this. Import 10 million random Poles into Sweden and you'll suddenly see a dramatic shift in support for homosexuals. Same thing for Syrians or anyone else. The culture you were brought up in heavily influences your beliefs and value system. Mind you, I'm not making a prompt judgement about an invidual here - that would be sheer idiocy indeed - I'm talking about the nameless mass of people and the statistical, average man you can reduce it to.

Beer Guzzler said...

>But if you keep running into bad apples, you should probably be wary of the orchard.

No doubt Islamist extremism needs to be taken seriously. It happens. What blew up in France and Belgium's face was decades of complacency and a lack of forethought. Nobody here used to keep mosques under surveillance. A building in a prime downtown location in Brussels was given - gifted - to the king of Saudi Arabia (!) in the 70s. People have woken up though and fuckups like those are being taken care of.

There is a risk, I know. I literally crossed the path of the Thalys terrorist and was within shouting distance of the Jewish museum when that attack happened. Neither would have happened if the local justice system wasn't so fucking inept.

However, no one ever mentions the positive aspects of Muslim immigration. Yes, things that are actually beneficial for me and society, no hippy dippy kumbaya crap necessary.

Here's what Muslims contribute to me:

1) Excellent and cheap produce, far superior to Belgian supermarket crap.
2) Amazing restaurants.
3) Far better customer care that any Belgian or Pole has ever given me.
4) Shops open on Sundays, when Belgians are too lazy to work.
5) When the entire country goes on strike in protest of some pathetic first-world problem, who keeps shit running? The Muslims.
6) Saving the country from a severe demographic/pension crisis.
7) Making Belgians learn since the first day at school that there's more to the world than white people in suburban homes spending all their life waiting for a comfortable retirement. No kid (or adult) in Poland knows anything about Syria, Islam, Averroes or hummus. No Belgian child (or adult) bats an eye when a gay pride parade passes full of prancing Blacks and Arabs. The mind, like a parachute, works better when open.

> The culture you were brought up in heavily influences your beliefs and value system.

Agreed, but...

> I'm not making a prompt judgement about an invidual here - that would be sheer idiocy indeed - I'm talking about the nameless mass of people

But refugees, like any other foreigners, aren't a nameless mass in the selection process. Nobody goes "all aboard the PKP to Poland". Ahmed Rahmani, 36, of Aleppo, Syria, pediatrician, married, 2 kids, no criminal record - that's who goes through the administration, not "a Muslim". Nobody's suggesting to lower admission requirements for Muslim refugees in comparison to any other non-EU citizens.

The average Kowalski sees foreigners the way you and I see zombies in a movie - as just an anonymous, scary, indistinct mass with evil intentions. It's deplorable, but inevitable in a backwater like Poland. But politics should never cater to the basest instincts of the great unwashed. That's why atheism is legal and the death penalty isn't, despite what most Poles would want.

Chris said...

I recall my first days in Poland when this country was so foreign to me. I couldn't speak Polish, and all I knew of Poland was from history books, and some brochures from the tourism bureau. I underestimated the role of the church in everyday life, and was surprised to discover the fellow teacher I was scoping out was actually a priest. I didn't give it much thought. I didn't plan to live here, so I behaved as a guest. I tried my best to view my time in Poland as a cultural experience, a cultural adventure. People wanted to know something about me, but right after the "where are you from" the next question was about my religion. One person even said, "You're not Jewish, are you?" And then expressed relief when I said no. That's the cultural proximity that makes me the right kind of immigrant. They saw me so they were pretty sure I was white or white enough to pass. They checked that even if I wasn't a believer, at least I wasn't Jewish. That's cultural proximity in action. It felt shitty to be accepted for such reasons, to be welcomed into people's homes for dinners because I'm from one of the "good" countries. Back in those days, characters from soap operas went to America for 6 months and came back successful businessmen. It felt shitty for a kid to invite me to his house for dinner and for that kid to laughand translate for me that his grandmother was clapping her hands together and saying, "Thank God, she's not black,"

Chris said...

I understand why many people are pushing back against the idea that we need to accept the refugees with open arms. I hear you. I'm not ignoring your thoughts, analysis, and arguments. I sincerely appreciate the dialogue. However I will continue to stand behind my belief that just as I am so very Polish now, those folks will get their chance to be their own version of Polish too.

Beer Guzzler said...

@ Chris:

Yikes. Some of the stuff you've heard from Poles is just mind-boggling cringeworthy. How on Earth do you keep your composure when you hear stuff like that?

Being a Pole myself, I don't think anyone in Poland has ever asked what religion I am. Everyone just assumes I'm Catholic. If the question of religion does come up, I always say I'm an atheist. Surprisingly, I've never gotten anything more than mild surprise as a reaction. But if I'm in the right mood, I'll say I'm Jewish. (I actually do have the ancestry, diluted beyond recognition, but still). To this day, I've had only 4 types of reaction to that: 1) stunned silence, 2) choking on a drink, 3) dropping an object, 4) "really? me too!".

But for a real freakout, nothing beats saying you're Muslim. I've tried a few times, instant gratification guaranteed. If you're into amateur sociology, it's worth trying.

However, I'm still too chicken to claim I'm gay anywhere near Poles. I love trolling people, but not at the risk of getting stabbed!

Chris said...

I've been tempted to tell a little fib about myself just to get a reaction, but I haven't succumbed to the temptation yet. I get enough I will pray for you's for being an atheist.

Sometimes foreign people here, not knowing my husband and children are Polish, just go to town on Polish people. Often their complaints are harmless such as older ladies lack of personal space while standing in lines to just plain stupid such as Polish people won't work overtime. I must say I do enjoy the moment they discover I am practically Polish undercover.

Anonymous said...

Skoro juz mowimy o liczbach i przerzucamy sie opiniami, jakie sa wysokie, a jakie nie... Taka dyskusje mozna prowadzıc w nieskonczonosc. I zawsze bedzie to zdanie jednej osoby przeciwko zdaniu drugiej, a nie argument w dyskusji, gdyz kazdy ma swoje racje, a ta moja jest najmojsza. Chce tylko zwrocic uwage szanownych dyskutantow, ze w obliczeniu sa bledy. 18 milionow z 400 to 0,045 = 4,5% a nie 0,045%. 4,5% z 38 milionow Polakow daje 1 710 000, czyli ponad poltora miliona ludzi. I jasne, nadal mozna dyskutowac czy jest to duzo czy nie. Kazdy oceni sam, i nikogo zmuszac do zmiany zdania nie nalezy.

I choc te 18 milionow Syryjczykow wyzej to figura retoryczna, w rzeczywistosci w prognozach mowi sie o milionach uchodzcow - na przestrzeni kilku lat. Jak ktos juz napisac wyzej, nie sa to ludzie tylko z Syrii, a z wielu innych krajow, nie zawsze bezposrednio zagrozonych wojna. Tylko w tym roku do Europy przewiduje sie ok 1 miliona uchodzcow.

Jednoczesnie, ataki na uchodzcow z pluciem czy biciem sa niedopuszczalne. To sa ludzie, tak jak my. Moje pytanie tylko, czy panstwa europejskie stac na dodatkowe miliony ludzi na zasilkach (nie pisze tu o tych hipotetycznych 18 milionach Syryjczykow, ale na przyklad o tegorocznym 1 milionie na poczatek)? Sa juz reakcje w Niemczech, sa w Szwecji, tzn panstwo zaczyna regulowac sytuacje. I dobrze. Jak sie za duzo ludzi zaladuje do lodzi ratunkowej, to ta lodz zatonie.

slawekk said...

When discussing the refugees problem I have had some limited success asking people to do a mental exercise of imagining they are refugees. Since Poles typically have difficulty with hypothetical thinking (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI for a great talk on that) I come up with a somewhat possible scenario: one day Putin drinks too much and presses a couple of buttons. Now instead of 38 million Poles we have 5 mln refugees. You and your pregnant wife managed to get to Turkey....

> 4,5% z 38 milionow Polakow daje 1 710 000

That's too many, maybe. But, how many would be not too many? My calculation is this: Germans are planning to accept 800 000 until the end of year. The German economy is about 8 times larger than that of Poland. This is a good scaling factor as it takes into account both how rich the country is (GDP per capita) and population size. That would give 100 000. It is unreasonable to expect from Poles to be on the same level of consciousness as Germans, so take half of that. So, 50 000. About 11 people in my gmina of 8000.

Aleksandra said...

Jak się wytyka innym błędy, to lepiej samemu umieć liczyć... 1.8 mln z 400 to 0,0045; czyli 0,45%. Prawda leży pośrodku?
Ale kogo obchodzą liczby w tej dyskusji, tak naprawdę.

Paweł Szmajda said...

Sure, Poland is homogenous in terms of ethnicity and faith (not our fault tho, read about Poland before the partitions). People here can be xenophobic and I'm not even talking about foreigners, I can't even go to the gym barefoot cause the staff will get downright hostile, just because it looks different and makes them uncomfortable. Never had a problem with that in Ireland or Spain or UK.

I'm an atheist so of course I despise the amount of influence that the Church has over Polish politics and public life. I would love for Poland to become a multicultural country again.

But if you think for a second that I like this artificially created and forced migration of muslims, think again. Fuck them. Don't let them in.

I've studied all religions, from pagan myth of Scandinavia, Africa or Polynesia to great monotheistic faiths of today. I've read the Bible, Torah and Qu'ran. I'm not an uninformed bigot and yet I dare to say: fuck Islam, fuck Qu'ran and fuck their hadiths. Fuck their prohibition of critical thinking, fuck their backwards laws, fuck their attitude towards women.

Islam destroyed Arabic and Persian culture. They created algebra. Had great poets. Then came the prophet. Now they have dung covered huts, can't have a nice day on a beach and women can't ride bicycles. Mauritania has 10-20% of actual fucking slaves. Not the kind that Saudi Arabia has, when they lure African workers with promise of good wages, take their passports and keep them in camps, while they work 15hrs a day for 2$. They have people born into slavery, that are kept with cattle and worked to death. In 2015. Fuck that shit.

Chris said...

Paweł - Welcome. I always enjoy a well-used "fuck that shit".