Tuesday, April 5, 2016

What's all the hubbub? Abortion Law in Poland

Last year in Poland, there were 1812 legal abortions performed in a country with a population just under 40 million. A woman may seek abortion in cases of rape, serious threat to the life/health of the mother, or severe birth defect. That's how it is supposed to work under the so-called compromise between the church and the state, and apparently it did work in 1812 cases last year.

I am personally aware of a case that didn't work - of the woman who was denied an abortion not because it was illegal, but because she couldn't find a hospital or doctor to perform it. But that is neither here nor there.

I think the current law is pretty restrictive. I've seen Pro-Life protesters on the street in Poland and always wondered what they were protesting exactly. It's practically illegal, right? What more could they want? A total ban on abortion? 

Yes. A total ban on abortion.

The proposal, still in project form, for a total ban on abortion has been sent to the Polish parliament. 

I'm not Pro-Abortion. I'm Anti-Unwanted Pregnancy. I support sexual health education and access to birth control in order to reduce unwanted pregnancies. That doesn't do anything for the cases outlined above, but it's my position nonetheless. I remember those Sex Ed. classes in school and the realization that the 15-year-old boy next to me didn't know the urethra from the vagina, nevermind the clitoris and nevermind birth control. That wasn't his problem.  

So on Sunday I decided to join the protest against this proposal. I feel it's my civic duty. We protested. We shouted. We clapped. We took our obligatory protest selfie. We crossed our fingers for the future of women in Poland.

On Sunday, priests in Poland read out the church's position on the matter during mass. Across Poland, some parishioners walked out of church in protest. For the most part, this was a silent protest without incident. In one church there was a loud exchange and hands were laid on one of the protesters.

And that's it so far. Ms. Beata Szydło, the Polish Prime Minister, said on Monday that it wasn't even a topic of discussion in Poland although a few days before she declared that she supports a total abortion ban. It's not even a bill yet, that's true. A bill is a law before it is signed, before it becomes a law. But when should we protest? After it's a done deal? 

As I was perusing my Facebook wall Monday morning, you know, as you do, I noticed a post about the protests in English. It was pretty standard, pretty much what I've written above. It was the comment section below the article that caught my eye - comments showing that the commenters had not even read the article and did not understand the current law or the proposed changes. There was even one saying that the protests hadn't actually taken place, that it was all a media manipulation. And that's where I made a mistake. I commented. For the last two days, I have been suffering through what can only be described as "hate". I've been bombarded with private messages...and I've learned a lot about myself. First of all, I am a whore, bitch, baby killing murderer. I don't actually live in Poland. I do live in Poland, and I have a secret agenda to liberate Polish women (that one's inadvertently humorous). I am funded by the EU to create abortion mills in Poland for the profit of Big Pharma. And the not so funny threats to my children. Not cool, not cool at all. But on the bright side, I finally figured out how to use my blocking settings.

68 comments:

bitowo said...

i suppose your children would be killed if weapon were legal. Both extreme right-wing and left-wing are wrong. It's dissapointing me. Polish law about abortion is in my opinion one of the best in the world. It allow to abort pregnancy in those cases which you wrote in the text, but didnt give permision to kill people. Every year 45 million people in the world are killed by aportion, because aportion law is too liberal.

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Thank God Poland is going in the direction it is... a nation that liberally kills it's own utterly defenceless children has no moral conscience whatsoever. The countless millions upon millions worldwide who have never drawn breath, been cherished or loved are a frightening testament against recent and current generations.

Magda M. said...

I'm Polish, but I live in California, I don't even plan to go back to live in Poland, but I'm still ashamed that the bill banning abortion completely is even considered in 21st century in an European country! I stand there with you Chris, pro sex Ed, access to birth control. I can't grasp my mind around the idea of forcing women to give birth to children that will never make it (due to fatal disabilities), to carry pregnancies that might lead to life threatening conditions or not to give a rape victim a choice...

Chris said...

bitowo- I'm quite liberal as you probably know by know and feel the law is too restrictive. But even so, I was surprised that some conservatives found it to be too liberal for them. I found the current law satisfactory. I think it was a good middle ground between us.

Tracy Leszczynski- I do not feel that Poland is going in the right direction and not only in this case.

Magda M. - Thank you for your supportive words all the way from sunny California.

Joy said...

Agghhh...all these laws restricting women's rights just drive me crazy! And I'm sorry to hear all the hate msgs you received. People are stupid. I really hate to see what's been changing in Poland since we left last year. But if Dump Trump is elected, things could head this way in the U.S. too. Why do white men always think they know best about a women's vagina or reproductive organs? :(

Pauline said...

Thank you for this post! Thank you for fighting for good of this country even some can call you foreigner :) I think we need more inteligent people who can use their brain and make their own mind, not affected by church, marketing etc. Things going on in Poland now are simply crazy... Could write more and more but you know :) I'm with you!

bitowo said...

some more content about abortion(in polish)
-situation in Poland in 2014
https://www.facebook.com/kingajewska/photos/a.1485149891705462.1073741837.1477839192436532/1732599096960539/?type=3&theater
-some Catholic point of view - year 1991 (in polish)
http://reformowani.org.pl/czytelnia/sprawy-spoleczne/793-oswiadczenie-synodu-ker-w-sprawie-ustawy-o-ochronie-zycia-poczetego

my point of view

First link
Kinga's photo is unsure when we talk about illegal abortion. I think that illegal abortion number is higher than in reality. It's impossible to check. Even if ~50 thousand pregnancies were aborted, most of them were done because 2 "retard" didnt use contraception or use it wrongly. Generaly no having knowledge or/and stupidity of people.

Second link
quotation tells enought about itself.
"Anomalia społeczna, jaką jest masowe przerywanie ciąży, domaga się uregulowania, jednakże wywieranie nacisków na ciała ustawodawcze w celu wprowadzenia surowych przepisów prawnych i karnego ścigania winnych nie należy do obowiązków Kościoła chrześcijańskiego. Forsowanie rozstrzygnięcia problemu na drodze ustawy antyaborcyjnej oznacza klęskę Kościoła jako siły moralnej. Chrystus nie przyszedł wszak sądzić i karać, lecz ratować ludzi przed złem. Kościół powinien więc kierować się również w tej sprawie ewangeliczną zasadą miłości bliźniego."

bitowo said...

I made a mistake > 2 "retards"

People didnt learn that sexual education and responsibility for children are the best solutions to limit abortion and unwanted pregnancies. Abortion law will never stops "bloodlust" untill people take responsibility for own decisions. Teaching a morality is harder than killing, but gives better results. Law should be something like protection for people. I explain what i mean. Just imagine you know a boy who had killed parents and he wants a revenge. Law should "tell" to him "don't do it because you go to jail and its not worth to killing people". I am not a fanatically conservative person like Terlikowski or Czesław Hoc.

read what Czesław Hoc said and you understand what means fanatical conservatie people.

https://www.facebook.com/opiekamedycznaniewatykanska/photos/a.1407319999556374.1073741827.1407222272899480/1710864072535297/?type=3&theater

Tracy Leszczynski said...

What about the baby's rights? Oh...it's just a bundle of cells right?

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Clearly not....Wholesale abortion and banning God from schools etc completely....is that the right direction? Thank God Polish people don't capitulate to the tide of darkness encompassing the world. Not only are atheists intent on living in foolish hopelessness but they wish to share their misery with everyone! Good job!

Chris said...

Thanks Joy and Pauline for your support. I appreciate it.

bitowo- I didn't raise the issue of the abortions performed in situations that the law doesn't allow. It happens and we all know it, however, verifiable data is impossible to find.

Tracy Leszczynski- I don't agree with your opinions on abortion or on the future of Poland. On the topic of atheism, you are ill-informed.

ds said...

thank you Chris. I would join the protesters if I were in Poland.

Edyta said...

Law should be established between government and it's people. One country one law.
Involvement of the church in this manner should be totally banned, it's inappropriate and straight out wrong. We all have different
Believes and need to be respectful of that. Poland, please don't swipe everything under Roman Catholic rug.
Hopefuly the outcome will be satisfactory to most citizens.

Chris said...

Edyta, let's hope. I love how you described it - under the Roman Catholic rug.

Anonymous said...

I knew you'd get grief from polish pro-lifers to your post. Sigh.

It's ironic that the country that screamed so loudly in protests against primitive Muslim immigrants has laws that are more regressive and repressive than the countries where these immigrants come from!

Poland used to be known as the nation of Solidarity, a nation that began the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Today it's known as the theocracy of Europe harking it back to the 15th century.

Wstyd.

Dorota in Colorado


Chris said...

Hi Dorota. Most of my friends in America couldn't find Poland on the map and don't really care what goes on here, but this week just about everybody sent me a message asking what's going on in this country. I responded that our Trump won ;) I got some terrible private messages via Facebook including death threats and conspiracy theories, some from fictitious accounts but most from their personal profiles. I can see their pictures, in some cases where they work, their phone number, their kid's first day of school. It was really shocking for me that some smiling person pictured with their grandkids at church would send me a death threat. And it's not very Christian of them either.The conversation continues here http://kielbasastories.blogspot.com/2015/09/me-hypocrite.html.

Anonymous said...

Just read "the conversation." My hat's off to you. I wouldn't have had the patience.

Dorota in Colorado

Me said...

Całkiem możliwe jest, że afera o zdelegalizowanie i penalizację aborcji jest sztucznie wywołana, żeby przykryć działanie mające na celu umożliwienie kościołowi (i tylko jemu) przejmowanie, "odzyskiwanie" i sprzedawanie ziemi. Rolnikom (i nie tylko) ma się utrudnić, jeśli nie uniemożliwić, swobodne dysponowanie swoją ziemią, a w zamian tego ułatwić zapisywanie ziemi kościołowi, którą ten będzie mógł łatwo spieniężyć.

Chris said...

Dorota - I did my best to stay calm.

Me - Based on the reaction of local farmers, they seemed to be riled up. They're worried long term about the future of their land, and short term about the purchases they were planning. They're also concerned about people like me who have a small holding of farm land that is farmed, but are not technically farmers. They don't have nice things to say about the church and call it a blatant land grab. Perhaps it is a matter of look over here to distract from what's going on. It's already in effect, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

I think Tracy is a computer virus. An extremely malicious one.

Shame on the haters, Chris - what Poland needs right now is a very loud voice of reason. I'm shaken by what's going on in there and it terrifies me to think I could still be living in Poland. I have no intention of ever going back, having spent too many years in a liberal country, that doesn't have a serious need to discuss abortion bans and gay marriages cause they're legal.

Kasia in Edinburgh

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Not a virus, a mother in Scotland actually... where is the malice Kasia? The virus I fear is the utter selfishness that convinces people the life of a defenceless baby is of no value. I am genuinely astonished people cannot see the truth if it. Have you read the accounts given by ex abortionists of their struggle and grief and shame when watching babies who survive the abortion attempts struggle for life until they breathe their last in a metal dish, never having been held or cherished. It is murder on a serious scale and your humanity has become dimmed living in our 'liberal culture'. We have not all lost the plot however and millions of us still value ALL life.

Chris said...

Kasia - Thanks for the support. I'll protest on your behalf and for ds and for Star and anyone else who is watching what is happening in Poland from abroad.

Tracy Leszczynski- I knew that you were not a virus because I checked if your name came up in any of the private messages I received on Facebook. Some people wrote from fake profiles, but most were from their personal profiles. Believe or not, there are people who sent me and my children death threats from their personal profiles that are not private. I could see the smiling face of an older gentleman with his grandchildren or a man in his 20s posing in front of his new car. Threats from people whose profiles include their employers and home phone numbers. Such hate from someone whose next post on their profile was a poem about love. Anyhow that's how I got to know you're a mother from Scotland and not a virus. Plus I can see your IP.

Tracy, I have no intention in telling you how to live. I protest in my way, and you in yours. If posting here is part of your protest, feel free,

Anonymous said...

Dear Tracy,

As a motherless child I simply value the life of the mother. Do you? Do you really value ALL life or just the life of the unborn? I'm astonished that you fail to see it from all, different, complicated angles.

Having said that - I respect your right to refuse to have an abortion. Please respect mine to have a different opinion.

Kasia

agaj said...

There was a pretty compelling article on the topic in the recent Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/04/01/indianas-new-abortion-law-wont-save-babies-it-will-only-make-my-patients-suffer/



Tracy Leszczynski said...

ALL life Kasia, of course. I dont believe abortion harms just the child...mothers and often fathers suffer lifelong depression afterwards, I personally know several people who struggle with this and of mothers who commit suicide as they are unable to cope with the regret and grief. Of course I sympathise with any person in a difficult situation but surely the violence of abortion is not an acceptable answer for anyone. If we tell people it is ok to kill their own children how can we expect anything good in our society? People laugh at the Catholic Church but they warned the world when the contraceptive pill was widely introduced that it would actually lead to promiscuity, women being viewed and used as sexual objects, irresponsible fathering of children, increased abortion, instability in society....I think we can safely say they were right. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, me included...as someone once said, all it takes for evil to dominate is for the good to be silenced.... adoption, better attitudes to sex (committed relationships) and more support for mothers and families are far better alternatives foreveryone. Very interesting article from a non religious perspective at

Tracy Leszczynski said...

http://www.epm.org/resources/1996/Sep/01/abortion-does-not-liberate-women/ FROM FEMINISTS FOR LIFE

Tracy Leszczynski said...

I cannot speak for the lunatic fringe Chris... clearly this is a very emotive issue but the hypocrisy is laughable.. if it wasn't so sinister. In the UK the police would be on the case of someone making death threats against you and your kids... hopefully the Polish authorities would do likewise. Free speech is important after all... even if we do strongly disagree...

Chris said...

agaj - Thanks for the link. It'd be the same here, or perhaps not or at least not for all. The closest medical facility performing safe, legal abortions is not far across the border - closer than many American woman have.

Tracy - Hormonal contraception was developed by a devout Catholic to help women. Hormonal contraception if used to prevent ovulation/menstruation (not just prevent pregnancy) reduces the probability of some cancers in women. About promiscuity, that is your religious concept. You probably have a definition of it in your mind, some number of sexual partners or any sexual partner without marriage. That is a construct of your religion and cannot be widely applied to the rest of society who do not subscribe to your religious beliefs.

The thing is, we who feel dynamically different from you, are neither uninformed, nor are we ill-informed, evil, selfish, or killers.

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Devout Catholics obey Church teaching, they don't flout it...there are many wolves in sheeps clothing or had you not realised that yet.... The use of the contraceptive pill has been proven to increase the risk of breast cancer and affect a woman's mental health amongst others issues. Sexual morals are just for us religious nuts are they...I have many non believing friends who teach their children the value of committed relationships and that their sexuality, male or female, is something precious, not to be given freely away. How many partners would you want your girls to have? You must have some standard? The taking of an innocent, defenceless life is an intrinsically evil act by anyone's standards...supporting it might not merit just the same outcry but is not far off. Selfish is too mild a word to describe the petpetrators and supporters of the murder of children. If you can't see that then you are simply refusing to acknowledge truth. I note there is no answer to the graphic descriptions I laid out of abortion and the aftermath on medical staff and parents....because you cannot justify or explain away the horror of it...just don't dwell on the unpalatable facts, as long as women are happy. In most abortion clinics the worst job is throwing out the garbage for the day....I wonder why?

Chris said...

Tracy Leszczynski- We can do this all day. Yes, Catholics obey church teachings. I am not Catholic. I do not subscribe to your religious beliefs. Your question of had I not realized about wolves in sheep's clothing does not apply to me. I have done my own research on hormonal contraception and I know the facts and how they apply to me. I don't care how they apply to you. I do not seek your permission or approval nor do I wish to influence your life choices. Following that, your persistence in calling me selfish, evil, a supporter of murders or murderers has no effect on me and will not. It is not my refusal to acknowledge anything.

What I teach my children is my business. I do not make any suggestions or demands on you, how you live your life, or what you teach your children.

You asked how many partners I would want my girls to have. Sex and sexuality are not taboo in our home. The conversation with our children evolves as they get older. I want my children to have healthy and satisfying sex lives. I want them to have happy and satisfying relationships. It is not for me to decide what is an acceptable number of partners for them. For one person it may be one and for another a hundred and one. I want my children to decide for themselves.

Anonymous said...

Chris, I admire your patience. I give up, I've been done with eristic dialectic ever since I passed my exam at uni - I'm no longer interested in winning an argument at all cost, especially when the opponent fails to address your arguments and their discourse follows no logic. I fail to see the connection between the number of sexual partners and being a 'child murderer'.
Carthago delenda est! Whatever you say, just because you don't agree with me and my 'truth', you are evil.

No one claims that abortion has no influence on a person who has to go through it. Of course there must be a lot of women who regret and suffer from depression afterwards. There also are hundreds of women who suffer from PTSD after being raped and forced to carry the rapist's child to term. There are also children who suffer all their lives due to being raised without a mother. No one has ever said that these choices are easy ones. All we are saying is that we believe these are choices that should be made by the mothers/parents of the child, not the state.

Kasia

Tracy Leszczynski said...

My point is, you suggested a 'devout Catholic' created the pill 'to help women' ....a truly DEVOUT Catholic would not consider a woman's reproductive cycle to be something requiring fixing, the Creator knows what He is doing... sexuality is not taboo in my home either, perhaps you have some preconceived notions of Catholic households and Catholicity in general. I don't care what you teach your children (although I wish them well in life of course) I was trying to emphasise that sexual morals don't necessarily only matter to religious people... how u choose to live your life is of no concern to me (again, I wish you well in life) but when your actions affect others, especially those unable to defend themselves, then it is nothing less than my duty to be bothered....I think we have wrung this one out now don't you :)

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Perhaps my objective is not winning an argument Kasia? Perhaps it is something much more important? Resorting to baseless criticism and insult seem to be a wee pattern with you ...

Chris said...

Tracy Leszczynski - I don't think you get to decide who a truly devout Catholic is. Reading the memoirs of the creator of the pill, he described himself as a devout Catholic.

I have no preconceived notions of you or your family's view on sexuality other than what I know from the teachings of your church. These teachings manifest themselves differently in different families, and I'm aware that a religious and a non-religious family may share views on the subject. When I say that sex and sexuality are not taboo in my home, I am describing my home. It is in no way a comparison to yours nor is it an attack on Catholic families. When I say I prefer coffee, it is not an attack on tea. You asked me about the standards I have for my children. I sought to answer that question. When I said that what I teach my kids is private, it was just that, a statement. It is not a commentary on your interest or lack of.

I, however, decided to write that I don't seek anything from you because I feel that you are not satisfied with my responses. As I said before, if you feel it is your duty, do what you must.

I think Kasia would agree with me in that we have no interest in convincing you.

Chris said...

Kasia - I have the patience of a saint. Dzięki za poparcie. Doceniam.

czarownica said...

Have you read a former First Ladies' letter?
Good of them, respect!

P.S. The number of lies or stupidities about contraception many pro-life supporters repeat without even trying to think for themselves makes me sick. I know almost everything about contraception, give condoms away, prescribe the pill, the emergency pill, administer depo, fit implants and coils, refer for sterilisation.
I enjoy it a lot and am happy that I can help women to choose how to control their fertility and have children when they choose.
Because ANY contraception is better than UNWANTED pregnancy.

Now you can burn or stone me, Tracy. Yes, I'm a witch and I'm proud of it :)

Tracy Leszczynski said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tracy Leszczynski said...

Not for me thanks, I value all life, remember....but I will be praying for you and everyone who needs it, including me :)

Chris said...

czar - Hello my favorite witchy woman!

I have read it the letter. Clear. Straight. Supportive.

Your patients are lucky to have you and to take away clear, factual information from their visits. I'm furious when some doctors (here) refuse to provide information or prescribe contraception due to their religious beliefs, and have the nerve to still take fees for that visit. My friend in Poland had an ectopic pregnancy that burst. She was rushed to the ER and suffered greatly. It was diagnosed a few days before by a doctor who told my friend that if she prayed it may slide down the Fallopian tube and reimplant in the womb. She believed him.

I read an article yesterday that many new doctors in the US are seeking training in reproductive services due to new restrictions in access. Just when we all thought that people were complacent about their reproductive rights.

Tracy Leszczynski - You have a sense of humor!

Anonymous said...

Pointing out flaws in someone's argument is not an insult, dear Tracy.

This is a discussion, which means I'm free to criticise your arguments and flaws in your logic. I have not criticised or insulted you personally (although you have used ad personam arguments in your posts, so funny you think I've done the same to you).

Chris: always (can't say my pleasure unfortunately)

Kasia

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Malicious virus here again...where are the flaws? I thought it was quite plain to see I was broadening the subject matter....the cruelty of abortion wouldn't be so widespread if babies were intentionally conceived in loving, committed relationships....not simply the undesired consequence of sexual gratification. The Church teaches that sex has a very important place in married life, is not something to be engaged in lightly due to, not least, the psychological and emotional effects it has on us (even non religious people admit sleeping around is damaging to one's sense of dignity and self respect) (I wont go into the spiritual consequences here...) not to mention the fallout if an 'unwanted pregnancy' occurs.... or the harm that relationship breakdown has on everyone, especially children. Fairly clear and logical link I would say.

Tracy Leszczynski said...

And the babies' choice? Oh...they don't get one.... and you people try and tell me this is good? And my argument is unsound?

Tracy Leszczynski said...

My best friend is a 'rapist's baby' - she is the kindest person I ever met. She is a teacher who brings the best out in every child who crosses her path. She helped me through some of my biggest trials. She is a HUMAN BEING and her mother made the right choice in not taking her life away because she was raped. Get real people!

Chris said...

I support sexual gratification. I support sexual education. I support access to contraception. I agree that sex plays an important role in married life. I do not believe sex is reserved for marriage. I believe that sex may be engaged in lightly or seriously or anything in between. I do not feel damaged psychologically or emotionally by any of my consensual sexual encounters. My dignity and self respect remain in tact because I am in control of my choices and decisions. Before you say that I am saying you are not, please recall my explanation above. I am describing myself. If I believed what you believe, I would join your church. I do not share those beliefs, hence I am not a member and do not subscribe to them. They have no bearing on my life. Repeating the teachings of your church here is no argument for non-members or non-believers.

I do not share your opinion on conception, life, death, and abortion.

A member of our family is also the product of rape, so do not implore me/us to get real.

Tracy Leszczynski said...

The teachings of my Church echo my deeply considered views also...therefore the above is also my argument, not just that of my church. Regarding the foregoing, as I said, I am keeping you all in prayer.... :) sorry, I couldn't resist. ..

bitowo said...

i see you are still talking :) in my opinion abortion law won't be changed. You are temporary winning Chris

czarownica said...

Tracy, your church is yours, not ours. Please keep "The Good News" to yourself, nobody's really interested :)

Anonymous said...

The two of you - Chris and Tracy - are the perfect micro level example of the situation in Poland = compromise will never be reached. It is either one or the other.

What is the point of getting out there Chris and protesting this or that if you can't, don't want to, or an unable to engage in a discussion with the other side? Or czarownica - "your church is yours, not ours. Please keep "the Good News" to yourself, NOBODY'S REALLY INTERESTED" What a brilliantly flawed comment. My dear czarownica (I also am a witch), first - do you keep your "good news" (and what did you exactly mean by that? Sorry - I'm rather slow ;P ) to yourself? If not, you have no right to make such suggestions to Tracy, and second - czarownica - you SHOULD be interested in what the other side has to say if you want to make a real policy change. And I think that you are - why otherwise would you bother with a reply?

Ughh, you people - both sides - drive me crazy. But whatever. Continue your senseless "I respect your beliefs. Mine, however, are the correct ones" debates.

czarownica said...

Anon, sorry - in comparison to Tracy I'm not imposing my beliefs on anybody. I'm not limiting women' choice to the only one "right" solution, as per my only "right" religion.
"The Good News" is "Dobra Nowina" - the term used by Catholics, who feel they have to tell everybody about their wonderful religion. And no matter if you tell them you're an atheist, agnostic or other non-believer, a Buddhist, Hinduism, Muslim, Orthodox or any other religion follower, they feel they must evangelise you, agrrhhh... That's why I said nobody was interested, give us a brake. I'm open to everybody's opinions, but react with allergy if any believers are trying to rule the politics putting us all back to the Middle Ages.

The sensible, although very frail, compromise in Polish abortion law exists already, why to try and damage it? That's what Polish church and national-socialist politicians are currently trying to do, so may be you should re-consider what you said and how you appraised us, hmm?

czarownica said...

Give us a break, of course. Give a brake to the fanatics rather :)

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Fanatical indeed! I pray everyone of you find your way home! The alternative is not great.... Revelation 22:14 'Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go though the gates into the city. Outside will be the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood..I Jesus have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches'. don't say you weren't warned lovies! Ok... sermon over... ;)

Chris said...

I agree with czar, we are not imposing our way of thinking on anyone. As for respecting others beliefs, it is obvious from comments such as the one above that my beliefs are not respected, but I don't care. No one has to respect my beliefs, but I ask only to respect my right to those beliefs.

I also agree with czar that the compromise which is the current law was satisfactory, too conservative for some, too liberal for others but a compromise. I'm protesting to keep it.

Chris said...

Anon - How do you propose I compromise with Tracy? Or she with me?

To reiterate, the current law is called a compromise - between the church and the government. For me the church isn't a party in discussion, but that is how the compromise stands. It allows abortion in tightly restricted cases. It is too conservative for me, but I am satisfied with it. Tracy doesn't live in Poland, but from what she has written, it's too liberal for her because she supports a ban on abortion. She doesn't agree that abortion is okay in those situations. Her beliefs which are hers and also that of her church are known to us. It's not that I don't understand her. It's not that I don't want to discuss it, but where can I go with the argument that I should find my way home, that I support murder, etc. I can agree to something more conservative than my belief, but can someone who is completely against abortion agree to something more liberal than their belief? Where is our compromise?

To those critical of my protest, I am protesting in the name of compromise, to keep the current law which for me already is a compromise.

czarownica said...

Anon, see now what I meant?
Tracy, may your god bless you and leave me alone :)

Anonymous said...

I love it how even in the 21st century supposedly educated people don't understand the idea of the separation of church and state... And it's especially sad that so many of them are Polish. I'm embarrassed.

In America, we're only a generation away from the dumb polak jokes. I'm worried that the current shenanigans in Poland will bring it back...

Dorota in Colorado

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Just one of numerous articles trying to get the truth out there for women https://www.hormonesmatter.com/stroke-birth-control-nelson-pill-hearings/

czarownica said...

Tracey, give us a break, would you? Nobody is interested, don't you really get it?

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Here's a great testimony from an American ex Satanist who assisted at 146 abortions, performing satanic rituals whilst the 'procedure' was carried out...he now travels the world testifying that abortion is a satanic ritual and trying to warn people to turn to God...enjoy!

Tracy Leszczynski said...

https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/former-satanist-i-performed-satanic-rituals-inside-abortion-clinics

Tracy Leszczynski said...

You are really not interested to learn from the article that the birth control pill is an experiment, that it causes strokes...that the 'authorities' knew all this over 40 years ago but have covered it up...risking the health of millions of women....and you are some kind of a doctor are you? I am glad you are not my doctor!

Chris said...

I thought the sermon was over?

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Ha ha it was...I thought u and the other ladies might be interested in some further reading :)

Chris said...

Speaking for myself, I am not.

czarownica said...

Me neither. But you seem to have attracted the preacher or the apostle, Chris, good grief!
That's the usual problem with the believers - you can't trust their promises, ever.

Tracy, I'm glad you're not my patient. You can't even imagine how much :)
I believe I know almost everything about all sorts of contraceptives, as I'm practising it on a daily basis and updating my knowledge FROM RELIABLE SOURCES constantly. Opposite to yourself, who reads rubbish from the internet and gets excited. Don't you really have anything else to get excited about, poor thing?

Yes, in unlucky women, usually with some sort of familial blood clotting condition, the pill can cause a stroke. Some may even die from it. This doesn't mean we should screen everybody we prescribe the pill for, as it would be unreasonable. We try to prescribe safely, following criteria. But even then things may happen.
People are and will be dying from side effects of medications, vaccines, procedures. We can only try to minimise risks, nothing more.
But at the end of the day, that's the Lord's decision, so get on with it, will ya?

Tracy Leszczynski said...

Better an apostle than a witch I'd say... much more exciting doing the Lord's bidding, believe me! You seem to have rubbished the article in question then agreed that the pill can cause stroke and death....hmmmm....? And mocked 'believers' who don't keep their promises, but then referred to the omnipotence of the Lord, signalling that you are a believer yourself. A confused one clearly...stay away from the medicine cupboard girl! Anyway, isn't medicine supposed to heal....? Oh a few tens of thousands of deaths and crippling disabilities here and there doesn't count for much...let's call it collateral damage....keep the programmes running....keep big pharma and all those caring sharing 'doctors' in business...whatever the cost! Lass, contact with you leaves a bitterness...I pray to God your patients are not adversely affected ..may He take pity and heal you.

czarownica said...

Tried hard, but I'm giving up - it's beyond my expertise.
Thanks, Tracy, for reminding me why I don't want to belong into any religious community.
And yes, I'm a believer. In Hitchens :)

Tracy Leszczynski said...

''For a lot of people, their first love is what they'll always remember. For me it's always been the first hate, and I think that hatred, though it provides often rather junky energy, is a terrific way of getting you out of bed in the morning and keeping you going...''. (Christopher Hitchens). ''But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you''. (Jesus, Matthew 5). Says it all really.... God bless you and give you His peace.

Chris said...

Koniec